How to Make an Intentional Career Leap with Carolina Cobo (Ep 21)
Your career takes up a pretty big chunk of your life. Do you enjoy what you do? Would you go so far as to say you are happy? If you know for sure that your job isn’t a good fit, where do you start? A career change can feel daunting. But it doesn’t have to. When you focus on what makes you happy and take intentional steps to reach your goals, you can change the trajectory of your career.
In this episode, I’m chatting with Carolina Cobo, former recruiter turned software developer. She shares valuable insight into how to leverage your current experience towards a career change as well as the importance of considering your future self and what will keep you happy and fulfilled in the long term. Her story is one that I think a lot of people can relate to, and her recruiter perspective will give you a leg up on making your leap.
In this episode, you’ll learn...
Why Carolina made a career change from technical recruiter to software developer [04:15]
How the COVID pandemic was a force in pushing Carolina to make a leap [09:51]
How her experience in Ireland opened her eyes to other work cultures and new possibilities [11:56]
How taking risks can bring big rewards [13:15]
The importance of putting yourself out there regardless of the outcome [15:15]
The steps Carolina took to leave recruitment and try a different path [16:35]
How online courses can give you a taste of a new career path [17:53]
The value of formal bootcamps when making a career switch [18:51]
The importance of not giving up and recognizing little wins as critical to your overall journey [22:04]
Why you should consider your future self (wants and needs 5 or 10 years from now) when thinking about your career [25:19]
How Carolina realized that she wants more from a career than “just a job” [30:44]
How to make yourself stand out in your CV when switching careers [33:32] [40:08]
How using keywords and networking on LinkedIn benefits you on your journey [38:06]
How connecting with companies and recruiters can help get your foot in the door [42:03]
That sometimes taking a pay cut or starting at a junior level can be worth it in the long run [44:48]
Why community and connection is so important in any career, but especially during a change [49:32]
Inspiration to make your own move if you’re considering a change [51:01]
If you’re considering your own courageous career leap, be sure to tune into this episode.
Standing at your own crossroads and ready to get clear on your direction? Apply for my Catalyst Coaching Program today!
Transcript of Episode 21: How to Make an Intentional Career Leap with Carolina Cobo
Carolina Cobo:
I was in a good company, but at short-term, my previous job was great because I was getting paid well, the company culture was great, my manager was awesome. But then I was like, "Okay, from now to two years, probably this is the best job because I could save. I could like enjoy my life because they know I do well so I have a lot of flexibility, a lot freedom and everything." But then I was like, "I hate the job. I don't like being a recruiter, and every day it's just bad and I know it won't change."
Lisa Hoashi:
Welcome to Leap Like Me. If you can't shake the feeling that you're not on the right path, if you feel called to change things up, but don't know how to begin, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Lisa Hoashi, and my specialty is coaching people at those crossroads moments in life, when you feel called to take a new direction, sometimes that means taking a leap. I want to share practical advice and inspiration for your leaps and how to keep going after your dreams in a challenging world. This season, we're talking all about career leaps. Come along for the conversation.
Lisa Hoashi:
Carolina Cobo was a technical recruiter who noticed that the people she was hiring seemed happier in their jobs than she was. And as the saying goes, she thought if you can't beat them, join them. So she started taking steps to become a software developer herself. In today's episode we get to hear how this recruiter handled her own big career leap into a totally different role within her field. She shares how she used her recruiting know-how to rework her own resume, and use LinkedIn to her advantage. She's got so many great tips. Listen in to hear what she found.
Lisa Hoashi:
Hello, Carolina, and welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us today.
Carolina Cobo:
Hi, thank you for having me.
Lisa Hoashi:
So first I would just kind of like to set the scene, and I would love to hear just where are you in the world right now and what do you do for work?
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah, so at the moment, I'm in Dublin. It doesn't look like it, but the weather is getting better, and I'm working as a front-end developer at a company called Genesys.
Lisa Hoashi:
And I'm curious, what do you like about your job right now?
Carolina Cobo:
So I'd say pretty much everything. So I have a lot of freedom and trust. I actually saw a tweet the other day of someone that made a change as well, and he was saying like, "It was like an oasis compared to the other jobs he had previously." And it does feel like that. So a lot of freedom and trust on what I'm doing, and it's also creative. It doesn't look like it from the outside, but it's just endless ways of solving a problem, so it's good. The pace is really good as well. So yeah, a lot of reasons I like it.
Lisa Hoashi:
These are some of the top things that you like right now. Yeah. And so tell us just, what were you doing before? When you think about your career switch, what were you doing before and what now?
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah, so I was a recruiter. I've been always in the tech world, so I kind of knew that side of things because I've hired engineers most of my career. And then I decided I was tired of hiring them and I wanted to be one of them because I've seen how good it is and how well cared they are, so I just wanted that for myself as well.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, and so at the moment that you decided to make your change, how were you feeling? What was going on for you? What were some of the indications that it was maybe time to start thinking about change?
Carolina Cobo:
So there were a few reasons. First of all, so I moved from Spain, and in Spain, once you have a path, you kind of follow along, like a career path, so it's really hard to change or to make a career switch. I think that's changing, thankfully. But I never thought I could make the change to something else, so I just went with the flow of being a recruiter. But then I saw a lot of people making career changes here and I thought, "Okay. Maybe here is different." I've always heard English-speaking countries, the work culture is different and they were more willing to let people do that.
Carolina Cobo:
But then also I realized I didn't like recruitment. At the time, I thought it was the company I was working for because I don't like agency work. I didn't know that either, so it was my first agency job. But then I moved to another company and I was like, "Yeah, the recruitment is just the thing I don't like." So yeah, a lot of things going on seeing that door opening was like, "Okay, maybe I can do it. And I don't like my job. Will I be doing this for the rest of my life? I'll try not to."
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Well, so you make... I mean, I've noticed this difference too because I've lived in Spanish-speaking countries, so I lived in Chile briefly and then I also have been living here in Spain. And so I have heard about... yes, I've noticed that there's a difference between my background as American... so seeing the difference between how we go through the education process and then choose a career. So just to explain for those who don't know, how is it for you at the outset? You have to go into school and kind of choose your [foreign language 00:05:46] your career already, is that right?
Carolina Cobo:
Exactly. So basically when you are... so we have secondary and then the second part of secondary, like high school, and then you have two years and for those two years... so you are 16 and basically you have to pick what you're going to do for the rest of your life. So depending on the... there are three paths, languages, what's the name? Social sciences, so it's like economy and a little bit of math, but not much, and then science.
Carolina Cobo:
So people who really don't know what to do end up in social science. That's what I did because I didn't know what I wanted to do. But then if you are there, you cannot choose a degree in like engineering. So the way they evaluate your grades, it's not possible. So if you want to do, you would have a really hard time to get into the university, coming from a different secondary education.
Carolina Cobo:
So you really don't think about it. And also if you have a job, you are grateful because you have a job and you will never leave it, basically. So my mom even was like, "Oh, are you going to do a change now?" And like, "Is that safe for you? Is it going to be good for your future? You have a good job now, it's stable and it's related to what you did in college." So she wasn't too sure at first, when I told her I was planning on doing this as well. So a lot of people go through that when they are in Spain. And as I said, if you have a job, you just stick to it forever.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So there's this mentality of choose your track, then if you're able to find a job in that track then you should just... yes, you're lucky you should stay put and be really happy you have a job and don't rock the boat, right. There's kind of like... Yeah. And so is pretty high stakes for you then to switch things up, no?
Carolina Cobo:
Yes, it was. But my partner did a switch as well. So he always encouraged me to do so because he used to sell wine. So he wasn't even in the tech scene, but he got sick and he was like, "Okay, I need a good job that in case I get worse will allow me to have a good life." And he made it. So I was like, "Okay, if he..." Because at first I thought I couldn't. I think that's what... A lot of people who want to switch careers think like, "Okay. I have a stable job. I don't think I'll be able to do this change now, or if I'm old," or whatever it might be. But he really encouraged me to do it. And I'm really happy he pushed me a little bit to be like more confident on myself, and just give it a real try, and here I am. So if you really want to, you can pick it up.
Lisa Hoashi:
Uh-huh (affirmative). So you saw him making a switch right when you were thinking about switching from recruitment. Is that right?
Carolina Cobo:
So he did a few years ago. So he's been an engineer for seven, eight years now. So he always told me like, "Oh, if you're not happy, do it." But I was like, "I don't think I can do it because I work, and I don't think I'll be able to make that change." I actually did another HR course because I wasn't happy in my recruitment job, so I thought maybe going into a more HR related role would be better. But then I was like, "I'm just tired of this, I want to be well treated and I want to have freedom and flexibility and more opportunities, not being the one who's always knocking in the doors, I want people to come to me." And that's what happens with engineers.
Carolina Cobo:
So then COVID happened, and that was another push because I wasn't sure if I was going to still have my job because at the beginning we were like, "Okay, what's going on? People will stop using recruitment agencies," because everyone was just firing people. So that was another thing that made me realize that I had to make a change because I didn't want to be scared again that I wouldn't have a job and I wouldn't have a way to afford a living, basically. So a lot of reasons, COVID was a big one as well, and also my boyfriend just being like, "Okay, just go do it." And it worked.
Lisa Hoashi:
So let's get into some of the more finer details of that switch, then. So you have this moment of like... I guess the sense I get of you, Carolina, is that you are a bit of a troubleshooter, and maybe before we go into the details of this change, maybe we should talk a little bit about that. So going all the way back actually to you being in Spain, you're working in HR, and you're like, you notice that there's kind of this cultural pressure to stay put, that it might be difficult for you to make changes within Spain. Is that right?
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah.
Lisa Hoashi:
And is that... How would you characterize what prompted you to move then to Ireland?
Carolina Cobo:
So I was unhappy in my company at the time and I wanted to improve my English because I knew in Spain that was a skill that it is really important. It's a big differentiator for people. I was hiring people, and for us hiring someone that have lived abroad was always a massive plus. So I was like, "Okay, I'm kind of ready for starting something new." So instead of starting a new job, but maybe just get caught on it, I'll just move abroad for a year, then come back and probably a lot of doors will be open for me then. So I just thought that would be a good decision in regard to my HR career.
Carolina Cobo:
But then, obviously, way more things happened when I left here, the awakening of going somewhere else and seeing other things and other company cultures. And also the company scene here is different because we have Google, we have Facebook, we have LinkedIn. And in Spain, it's more common to find... it's getting better as well now, but it's more common to find small companies run by families. So culturally, you learn differently as well, so it's not as corporate as it might be here. And I think it's a good way to learn as well. If in two years I want to go back to Spain, I know I could work in any kind of company.
Carolina Cobo:
When I came here, working in a big company was like, "I don't know what's going on. I'm not familiar with any processes or anything like that." So that was the reason I picked Ireland because it had that big company scene. That was something I wanted, so my move here was just to boost my career when I was coming back to Spain that I planned like [crosstalk 00:12:42].
Lisa Hoashi:
That was originally what you were thinking.
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah. But it never happened, so here I am still.
Lisa Hoashi:
Well. And how risky did it seem for you to go to live in Ireland at the time? Was that a difficult... it sounds like a pretty big leap to me, but I'm just curious how was it for you?
Carolina Cobo:
Everything is scary when you are making a big change in your life, but I just took... So I tried to take things as try them, if you don't like them, you can always go back to wherever it was before. You don't need to marry it forever. So I was like, "Okay, I'll go. I'll try. Maybe I won't like it." I was worried about the weather because obviously I'm from the south of Spain, so I'm used to the sun, the warm weather. So I was like, "Maybe..." My mom told me the same. She was like, "Oh, I don't think you'll cope well with that weather for too long." So I was like, "Just try. See what happens. Worst case I'll come back in a few months, and I still have that experience on my CV to show that I lived there and I improved my English."
Carolina Cobo:
So also I wasn't hanging out with Spanish people when I came here because I wasn't sure how long I was going to be here for, so I just wanted to work on my English, so that was my main goal when I was here. But then I came, and it was way better than I expected. I found a job pretty quickly, it's worse to find accommodation rather than a job. So I was like, "Okay." Just kept going with things. Then met my boyfriend, so that was another reason to stay. And then changed careers, and all of that I don't think I would have if I was in Spain now. So things developed in a great way.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Well, so it sounds like things went fairly smoothly once you got there, and also that there was this kind of awakening as well, it's like all these possibilities kind of jumped out at you that point.
Carolina Cobo:
I think so. I think I was lucky. I know people that didn't have such a good experience or that just came here and they couldn't find their place. I think I just tried to be flexible to things, obviously to certain extent. So I knew I wouldn't be comfortable coming here and speaking in English and the weather and the food and everything, but I was like, "I have to give it 100% try and see how it goes. And if I don't like it and I come back, I will never regret not trying hard enough. So I think that's important as well when committing to a change like that. If you do it, do it well, even if it's just a month, and then you're like, "Okay, I did my best. It didn't work out. I'll just go back to where it was."
Carolina Cobo:
And I took the change of career as something similar. I was like, "Look, I'll try it. I might hate it," which I am not, "but you never know until you do it. But worst case, I can always go back and be a recruiter. I'll have more experience, I'll know better about the technology of people I could be hiring for." So in that way, it wasn't a bad decision, I guess. It's just scary always, but I think it pays out if you really try.
Lisa Hoashi:
Yeah. So it sounds like you had this sort of mental trick to let yourself know that there was always an out, that you didn't... like you said, you don't have to commit to this or be married to it forever, "But while I'm here, I'm going to give it 100%."
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah. Exactly.
Lisa Hoashi:
It's that kind of thing. Mm-hmm (affirmative). All right, so going into that moment of the actual switch, you decide, "Okay, I think I'm going to leave recruitment." Can you walk us through the steps that you took at that point?
Carolina Cobo:
So I think I'm a researcher by nature. So I just started asking people, looking for people at LinkedIn, be like, "Okay, people who made a career switch, what kind of paths did they follow? What did they do? Reach out to some of them and ask them like, 'Okay.'" I think I found a couple of recruiters that made the same change, so I asked them.
Carolina Cobo:
And then, because I didn't know, I just got a tip course on Udemy to... You have really good courses, I think people don't value them enough. So I got like, I think it was like a 12-year-old course, and I was like, "Okay, I'll do it. I'll follow it. I'll build projects. I'll see how's the workflow, how's everything, and see how I feel and if I like it." And then I really enjoyed it, I really liked it. But I was-
Lisa Hoashi:
Do you remember what the name of your Udemy course was?
Carolina Cobo:
Yes. So it's a Web Development Full Stack Boot Camp, I think. It's... what's her name? She was a doctor that converted into software development as well. So she has a really interesting background, the person who conducts it. I don't remember her name now, but I think her company's call Brew something. I don't have it on top of my head now, but I can share the links with you, if you like.
Lisa Hoashi:
Sure. No problem. I was just curious, to give people an idea of what was your actual starter course.
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah. It was like a boot camp. I think any boot camp that would cover pretty much all the basics of like HTML, CSS, it's kind of a nice way to get started, so it's not so overwhelming. Because then you move into JavaScript, then it's like proper programming language, and you're like, "Oh my god, what's going on?" At least if you start on a static website, it feels kind of easy on your mind like, "Okay, I could do that. This might take me longer, but I probably can do it as well."
Carolina Cobo:
So I'd say any boot camp, there's a lot on Udemy. Any boot camp would be good. I think that's also important to like the person who is conducting it because then you kind of engage better with their course, so they always have a video or two to show who are teaching it and everything. So I think also if you like... I like her because she was a career switcher as well, so I thought that was interesting to see how someone could go from doctor to software developer.
Carolina Cobo:
But then I thought I was lacking a bit of structure and something a bit more formal because unfortunately when the quality is good, the Udemy courses are not valued when you are kind of applying for a job. So then I joined a formal boot camp here in Ireland, it's called the Code Institute, and basically it's 12 months and you... Well, when I was doing, I built four projects, I think they are doing like five or six now. But basically, you go over different programming languages. So you do full stack as well, so you do back end a little bit with Python and then front end with JavaScript.
Carolina Cobo:
And also they have a community. I think that's one of the keys when changing careers is finding other people that are in your same situation. So they have a Slack channel and it has like 6,000 people. So people ask questions, they share maybe articles or things they are doing. If you don't know how to do something, you can go always and ask. So I thought that would help me, encourage me more to also get into it because I think our career also kind of shapes our friends because you ended up being friends with your colleagues. So then you move to a new kind of career and then you don't know anyone. So I think that was helpful as well for that reason.
Carolina Cobo:
And when you're a bit low because with changing careers, you have times where you're like, "I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know if this will ever work." And then you see other people succeeding, so that's really encouraging as well. So I did that boot camp and when I was near at the end, so I actually finished it and started my job with two days of difference. So it kind of... I think everyone gets... depends on the case, but a lot of people get a job even before they finish the course because it's really complete. It's a lot of hours. I was doing 20, 25 hours a week on top of my 40 hours of work. So yeah, it's a lot, but I think it's worth the effort for a little while.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so how long did your whole kind of transition take, would you say?
Carolina Cobo:
So I started in April 2019, no, 2020. So it's been nearly two years now, but formally, formally doing it, fully committed and knowing that was what I wanted to do, I'd say like a year and a half or so because I started the boot camp in the Coding Institute in October 2020, and I joined my job in October last year, and finished the course in October last year. So yeah, I'd say one year of full working mode going all in for it.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). And like you said, there's those moments of self doubt, right, and you don't know if it's going to work, if all the effort is worth it. So what started to be some things like along the way that were confirming to you that this was the right path for you?
Carolina Cobo:
So I was interviewing and I was progressing. I didn't get the job. So I interviewed with Google and I passed all the interviews, they even let me repeat one of them, then I wasn't offered the position, but just getting there, I'm like, "Okay, I can do well in a technical interview. I can pass it. I can be desirable for potential employers." That was a confirmation. And then so I work a lot on my CV, my portfolio to kind of have something appealing because the hardest part is to get in. I work a lot on that. And my portfolio was like... everyone was telling me, "I really wanted to talk to you because I really liked your portfolio." So I was like, "Okay, people like what I'm doing. It seems like I'm doing well in the interviews. So I think I can get there."
Carolina Cobo:
And then, as I said, seeing other people with similar backgrounds or people coming from absolutely random backgrounds like musicians getting into development. I was like, "Okay, okay. It might take time." Sometimes you're like, "No, I will never be able to do it." But then it's just focusing on keep improving. It's hard to take those nos in. It's hard to fail. And I'm not going to say it's easy, and I thought about quitting myself because I was like, "Okay, I don't know for how long more I can do this." But then I reminded myself like, "You can keep going a little bit more and you can still do a bit more and you like it. So just keep trying until you get it."
Carolina Cobo:
I was also being picky to what jobs I wanted to take. So I think if I would have been more flexible, I probably could have gotten a job sooner. But I wanted to go to a good company where I would know I would be happy, and I'm really glad I did it at the end.
Lisa Hoashi:
And what were some things... I mean, it sounds like some important things for you were to keep making progress and then having those outside affirmations like the job interview at Google to say, "You're doing well." And to also have these role models in the community that you're a part of, they were able successfully do it.
Lisa Hoashi:
What else kind of helped you keep going? Even just like on an energetic level of like... because it sounds like you're working a lot to develop that portfolio and to keep learning while you still had a full-time job. Any tips or things that helped you just kind of maintain that energy?
Carolina Cobo:
Thinking long-term. So I was in a good company, and short-term, my previous job was great because I was getting paid well, the company culture was great, my manager was awesome. But then I was like, "Okay, from now to two years, probably this is the best job because I could save, I could enjoy my life because they know I do well, so I have a lot of flexibility, a lot of freedom and everything." But then I was like, "I hate the job. I don't like being a recruiter and every day it's just bad and I know it won't change." So then I was like, "Okay, where do you want to see yourself in five or 10 years? Because you have another 30 years left, so you better be doing something you enjoy, even if it might be really hard to get in, but just don't kind of be happy and content with the short-term and aim for the big picture and the long-term that you'll be happier."
Carolina Cobo:
And I haven't been in my current job that long and it is good. It is way better than I thought. And now I can see myself doing this for the long-term. So just focusing on that like, "What's your..." The first thing is like, what's your goal changing careers? Is it just you're having a bad day or it's actually you don't like what you are doing and you need a change? If it is that you really need a change, then paint that long-term picture. It might not be the same, but see what you want to get and then work towards that instead of uncomfortable, "It's not that bad." Because you want to say that it's great, not that it's okay.
Carolina Cobo:
So I think that it's hard sometimes, but having that mentality of the long-term as well, helped me a lot to be like, "Okay, keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing until you get there."
Lisa Hoashi:
Yeah. And one thing we didn't go back to with that sort of troubleshooting part of you was that it sounds like there was a moment where you were like, "I'm not sure I like recruiting." And then you thought, "Well, maybe it's just the company I don't like." So it's like you tested that by making a change. And then you were like, "Okay, now I have all the evidence that it's actually recruiting that I don't like, and so now I have to change my actual profession."
Carolina Cobo:
Yes.
Lisa Hoashi:
What did you discover about recruiting that were the things that you were just like, "No, this can't be fixed, this is part of the work"?
Carolina Cobo:
Yes. It's having targets and KPIs. So when I was in an agency, my target was monetary. So it was like, "How much money you bill last month, or for the quarter?" But then it's better, it's 100% better when you're working directly for a company, but you still have targets and KPIs. And the thing is like, it is out of your control because every candidate has their own situation and you might be... Like the company I was working for, salary-wise was great, benefits and everything, but maybe people wanted a different challenge or wanted to go to the office, and we didn't have an office where they were... a lot of reasons that are out of your control, that then will reflect on how you are performing, basically.
Carolina Cobo:
So it didn't matter how much you work, it didn't matter how much you did. If at the end of the quarter, you haven't hit your target, it is like you haven't done anything. Easily, they'll take that into consideration. But then if there's another quarter and it happens the same, and then another one, they'll put you on a performance improvement plan. And you might be doing your best and hitting the kind of targets of reaching out to these many people, having these many people in the interview. But at the end, the decision is on someone else and it's not on you, and you have to play that influence kind of role, which is fine when you like the company, which I did, but then I respect everyone's situation. So if another company's giving you something you really want, you should take and not come to us. But then you get into that situation it's like, "I really need you to join for myself and selfish, but I really want you to do well." So you get into always in that kind of situation in the middle, which I didn't like.
Lisa Hoashi:
There's like an ethical dilemma sometimes of like, "Maybe it is better if this person goes somewhere else, but I actually need to reach my goal. And so I feel the pressure that they should come with me."
Carolina Cobo:
Exactly. I always tried to like... if they wanted money, try to get them more money. If they wanted more flexibility... whatever they wanted, I always tried my best to get it. But at the end, "I respect your decision. It's your life. It's your family. It's your professional career." So some people are more... they're great recruiters and they can balance that out. For me, it was really hard to do that because I always thought like, "Am I putting myself first because I want them to join us, or is it the best for them? I think it's the best, but I don't know." So I wasn't in a position where I was happy.
Carolina Cobo:
And then everything just boils down to, "You have a target. Have you hit it? You haven't? Okay. Why?" You can be proactive in recruitment, but it is more reactive rather than proactive in a lot of ways, which I don't like either because you don't know what it's going... it has to be reactive because you don't know what's going to happen at the end of the process. A lot of things that are out of your control, so then you need to kind of do it at that time. So even if you're trying to be proactive, asking questions, doing things, people are not honest, either, all the time.
Carolina Cobo:
And sometimes they play you to get a raise in their current company, but they keep telling you like, "Oh, I won't take the... if they control for me." But then they do. So it's a lot of things that are out of control and probably you've seen a bit of controlling person, so it just wasn't a good match. And it took me a while to realize that as well because I always thought I could do any job, always. I was like, "You just go do it. And it's fine, it's just a job." But then it wasn't with recruitment, and I can see that now, which took me a while, and I was probably hard on myself. And I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, I'm incompetent because I don't know how to do this." But sometimes it's more, maybe the company, maybe the job. And then it's when you need to start thinking like, "Okay, let's make a plan here and look for another option because there are a million options out there."
Lisa Hoashi:
Yeah, Catalina. I mean, I wouldn't call it controlling. I think what I really try to do with my clients is to try to find the right match to them and kind of like what you're saying is like some people cope with that situation better and you were starting to notice that that wasn't the best thing for you, maybe it was really draining. You felt really involved with it or... And it sounds like you wanted work that allowed you to have more of that control, right, that you're put in charge of a project and you could more to influence the outcome.
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah, exactly.
Lisa Hoashi:
It sounds like an important thing to understand about your own happiness at work, right?
Carolina Cobo:
Yes. But it takes a while. And I didn't either know when I was going into college. But yeah, it's exactly what you said. Now I can think and then action on what I want to do and what I want to try. With people, you can't do that, unfortunately. You can try from one candidate to another, but it's not as easy and it's really draining as you said because you might lose them because you tried something else. So yeah, that really defines how I felt about it.
Lisa Hoashi:
Well, so can you talk a little bit now about how did you use your recruiter skills to then get your next job? Because I know a lot of people... Well, first of all, it sounds like you're very well versed in LinkedIn, much more than the average person, right, so you can give us some tips about that. But with my clients who are making this type of switch, I hear over and over again, that the translation of their experience into a new role or how to present themselves when they kind of feel like they're just starting out with this. Like you had just newly learned your developer skills, right. And so how did you approach that?
Carolina Cobo:
Yes. So what I did was it is hard to let go, and it was for me, and I know I have other friends that are going through the same, and it's hard to let go all the work you've done in the past. So my first CVs had a lot of my recruiting career, but then I was getting rejected everywhere. So I was like, "Okay, this is not working. Let's try something else." So what I did is I had two pages. So in my second page, I had all my professional experience and my degrees in HR and everything I've done. But then I made a first page focused on what I was looking for. So I was looking for a software job, so I had a brief description about myself and my skills.
Carolina Cobo:
And a lot of companies, for example, are valuing now empathy because that's the best way to provide a good service and a good product, it's actually empathizing with your clients. So for example, that's something you really need in recruitment. So I was like, "Okay, I'll go all in for this skill." Then I showed a little bit of my work, so I had a link to my portfolio. I had examples of my work. And then I also added all the things I was doing because I was doing my boot camp, I was reading a lot of like programming books, trying to wrap my head around it because obviously you need to do more because you have less time, you are working full-time, so it's not as when you are 18 and you go to college and you have all the time of the world.
Carolina Cobo:
So I just put there all my interests, like I participated in hackathons that the Code Institute was organizing. I was trying to get myself out there. I was writing articles. I was just trying to show that I really wanted to make the change. And then it worked, people were not focusing on... Obviously, they asked me about like, "Why I didn't want to change? Why I was looking for that?" But then when you are having the conversation, it's really easy to be like, "Look, I'm not happy with what I'm doing now. I've discovered this and I really want to do it."
Carolina Cobo:
So you really need to show why you want to change and all the things you've done. And everything counts. After seeing myself, I don't know how many CVs I've sent in all of my life, but I could more easily empathize with someone that is showing me more about themselves rather than, "Yeah. I work in X, I do this and that." So it's like, if you're like, "Okay, I'm a volunteer. I'm participating in all of these things that I'm not getting paid for, but I really want to learn." And that's something they told me during all my interview process like, "Oh, you are so keen. You are hungry for learning and for improving yourself." So when you are doing a career change, I think that's mostly the feeling you have. So you need to show that and show that you really want to... it's just not a naive idea you've had, and it's something you really want.
Carolina Cobo:
And then keywords. So LinkedIn is basically a massive database. So the way recruiters search for people is either using the LinkedIn filters, so in the internal view of LinkedIn, you can pick things like names of jobs. So some people like to put fancy names, and unfortunately that doesn't work for the engine to search for things. So you might think you are being different, I think only really senior engineers can do that because-
Lisa Hoashi:
Can you give us an example of what you mean by a fantasy name?
Carolina Cobo:
So some people use like [foreign language 00:36:39] engineer. And it's like, "Look." Because it sounds similar, but like the letter [foreign language 00:36:46] it's not easily... it doesn't work in any other engine that is not Spanish. So it's like, you are... depending on how the recruiter is doing a search, you won't come up and you need to come up and recruiters need to see you because that's... Obviously, you need to apply a lot and you need to do your own work, but... One of my friends, I've helped her and she's getting recruiters reaching out to her because she's being proactive into her LinkedIn, she's trying things, she's putting the keywords out there and thinking.
Carolina Cobo:
So she was like, "Oh, I'm not sure if this..." because now she's trying to be a designer. So now they're using more product designer instead of UX/UI designer as it was before. So she's seen that trend and she's like, "Okay, I'm going to change my name, and if they look for product designers, they'll find me." So that's what you need to aim for and not be like, "Oh, this will make me look different because-"
Lisa Hoashi:
And what you're talking about is the line that's directly below your name, right? The little headline, that's like the primary keyword place, or where...
Carolina Cobo:
No. It's the name of your job. So you know when you go and edit another job, it looks for both those things. So you can, as I was saying, you can search in two different ways. You can use those keywords that they have predefined on their search, it's just like you click on it and it picks it, or you can do a Boolean search. So a Boolean search is basically keywords. So you would be like, "Okay, I want a senior engineer or developer, or whatever it might be," and all the other space you might be looking for like, "And Java or JavaScript," or whatever it might be. So you need to have those words on your profile.
Carolina Cobo:
I think in a super easy way, when you don't know what to use, copy them from job descriptions. So look for a job description of a job you like and you would like to be doing, and then use those words because that's the way they are going to find it. And also be active on LinkedIn, that helps a lot. It's hard. Some people are just like, "Oh, I think I'm bothering people." And it's like, "No one cares. Just post there and comment, like." And then it's how you get noticed.
Carolina Cobo:
So I think now networking is everything as well. It's really important, even more when you are changing careers because if you know... Like for myself, if someone that is trying to change careers, come to me now and ask me for help, I'll help them a lot, and I just try to be out there and people can see what I've done, how I've done it because I'd like to help other people to get there. But if you are not on LinkedIn or you are not looking for people, you will never get that help. And like myself, a lot of people are willing, and I think even more people who change careers are so happy to help other people that are trying to do the same. So it's a lot of work, but I think it pays off with time.
Lisa Hoashi:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). So what I'm hearing is the top tip for the CV, the resume, is to really move to the first page everything that is related to the job that you want.
Carolina Cobo:
It worked for me, and I think it will reflect good. Also, some people are like, "Oh, I want to have one-page CV." Honestly, I prefer two pages with good information, than one page with no information because you've just pushed everything together so you could fit it on one page. And you need to have your contact information and that takes space. So if you can do it in one page, that's great. I think it's also hard to read when you have too much information in just one page. But I think two pages with kind of your two lives, the one you want to get, and the one you already have, and all those skills that you have that are really valuable. I think I'm doing great, and I feel like I am progressing fast because of all my previous experience.
Carolina Cobo:
I know how to work. I know how things are. I just need to learn the technical part, but I know how to work and I know how to be part of a team, so that's something you only get working. It doesn't matter what you do. You get it for just the fact that maybe you've worked for five or 10 years. So those are really valuable skills that other people won't have. And depending on the job you have, if it's customer-facing, there are a lot of other roles that might be better that are customer-facing as well. And customer-facing is customer-facing, it doesn't matter where you do it, just you are the dealing with different problems. But it boils down to be the same thing, basically. So it's important to see that and also embrace that as part of your new career and just take advantage of what you have already under your belt.
Lisa Hoashi:
And if people feel like they're not making any headway with just the sort of CV and cover letter applying, what are some other tips that you have for kind of how to get your foot in the door?
Carolina Cobo:
Yeah. That's hard. I think looking for people who work in a company you like. So I think a great way to start is just looking for open roles because you know those companies will be willing to talk to you, even if it's to say no, they're looking for people. So it's easier to knock at that door and be like, "Hi, I'm looking for a job. Let's see if this works." So I think recruiters, some recruiters don't get back to people because they have too many messages, but I think pretty much all of them will... I always try to get back to people if they ask me for advice on their CV or whatever it might be. So just trying that and ask them like, "What's what you are looking for? What are you doing?"
Carolina Cobo:
And then finding people that are in your same kind of situation because they might know things you don't know, they might be applying for companies you don't know they're hiring and could be a good fit for you, or they could have got a job and they could be referring you. I refer a lot of people from the Coding Institute because I'm like, "It's a great company. Come join me." And I'm doing it because I want them to do well, and now I have that kind of power. But same if someone reached out to me recently for a role, and I was like, "No, I just started here. I'm happy. I don't want to move, but I'll share it with all these other people."
Carolina Cobo:
So those connections help a lot to build that and to know about companies you might not know, or just keep asking other people, or even just looking at their LinkedIns, I've seen where they've worked. For example, if someone looks at my profile, they'll see I started as a junior in this company, so that means that company hires for junior people. Some companies don't, so it might be a waste of time to go and apply there. But a lot of companies like to hire junior people, so those are the good companies to apply for. So it's a lot of research and LinkedIn work, but I think if you connect with the right people, it's good. Also Twitter, I've started to use Twitter a little bit more and I've seen the community there is also really good, so it always worth a try as well to ask. I've seen people be like, "Oh, I'm looking for a job if you know of any, yes, please let me know."
Lisa Hoashi:
Cool. Yeah. The power of keeping all these conversations going and trying to find help or connection in all these different places sounds like it really helps.
Carolina Cobo:
Yes. It does. It does.
Lisa Hoashi:
Well, one other thing I want wanted to ask you about is a common perception is that when you're making a switch, like you did, from one kind of professional role to another, that you necessarily have to start at a more junior role, like take a pay cut or start at a different more junior role. What's your take on that?
Carolina Cobo:
I think it depends on what you are looking for. So at the beginning, I wasn't sure if I wanted to do software development or support because I felt like maybe those interpersonal skills would help me in more customer-facing, helping people with problems. So it was easier to get into a more kind of... not super mid-level, but maybe starting mid-level there as a technical support. But then I was like, "I think long-term, I won't like it. So I'll just give it my goal to start as an engineer. And then I'm willing to get a pay cut, get a junior level." So that's the hard part and that's probably the scariest part when you are thinking about that. And it's something you also need to consider depending on your situation.
Carolina Cobo:
But also, again, long-term. So to move, I took like a 15% pay cut on the base. And then I had a bonus as well depending on my KPI and my targets and all of that. So it was a big pay cut, but for me it was more important being happy. And I knew long-term being a software developer will take me further in terms of maybe leading a team, progressing, I know it will be fast. And I know if I get tired of being a software developer, I can go into project management or scrum master, or like... it open way more possibilities for me.
Carolina Cobo:
So the money wasn't the most important thing for me. So I was like, "I'll see how much I can get. And then I'll plan around that." Obviously, it might impact your life, which is fair. But I think it works long-term as well. So again, short-term versus long-term. So yes, I just got a raise as well, which I wasn't expecting at all because I haven't passed my probation. So that step back kind of took me further, which is really good.
Carolina Cobo:
And also, before that I always had to ask for it to happen while here it's been more like, "Okay, you're doing a great job. You deserve this." Which I really appreciate as well, and it's also making me more engaged to the company. So I really think when you are happy at the work that reflects also in what you are doing. So I think that helps to kind of achieve other things that for me money wasn't as important, but it's happening as well, so it's a good thing.
Lisa Hoashi:
Well, that's so great because it sounds like you very intentionally wanted to be in a career path where people really... you were in demand, where people would come to you, and it sounds like where they're also like... where there's money there and they're willing to invest in you.
Carolina Cobo:
Exactly. And it's also the job is... in tech, it might change in a few years, but now it's like... so it is good because people respect you and that's not something I didn't like when I was a recruiter, people don't respect you as much because there are a lot of really bad recruiters out there. And unfortunately, that's just... it makes you one of them, even if you work good. While in software or tech companies, you see a lot of sense of community and everyone just wants to help each other to be better, which is also great. People always want to teach you something, want to help you to be better. And it is not... in recruitment, it's more like competing to promote because they can promote everyone. So you really need to show that you are the better one compared to the other people. And you show that through numbers, basically, most of the times, because if you're not performing well, you're not going to get a promotion. So it is a lot of things. I hope recruitment change, but it is just not as good as it should be.
Lisa Hoashi:
Yeah. Well, Carolina, I've gotten so many great things from this conversation already and just hearing your story. I'm curious, is there any part, before we start to wrap up, is there anything that you really felt like was important or that you really wanted to share that we might have missed?
Carolina Cobo:
No. Just for people really not to be scared to ask questions and to get in touch with other people, and also not afraid to make a change because if you are like... it's so long, it's so many years of your life that you really shouldn't be wasting on something that doesn't make you happy.
Lisa Hoashi:
Awesome. To wrap up, I want to ask you the three questions I ask every guest. And the first one is, what do you wish you had known before you took your leap?
Carolina Cobo:
Exactly that, like how supportive everyone is in the community. The sense of community and how encouraging people are and how helpful they are, even sometimes they don't ask anything in return. So I wish I knew sooner so I would probably started to make those connections and maybe I wouldn't have hesitated at the beginning being like, I'm not sure if I knew like those cases of success sooner. So hopefully I won't change careers again, but next time I'll just do that research as soon as possible.
Lisa Hoashi:
Awesome. And what was one of the most unexpected things that you found?
Carolina Cobo:
So being here, being part of those people... I've been trying to write a lot and advocate for people to make the change and to push through to do it. So I thought I always helped people as a recruiter, but it's more like a case-by-case. And now I think I'm trying to reach to the community and to whoever it might be. So I wasn't expecting it, things would turn out, I just thought I would change careers and that was it. But I think there's more around it, and that sense of wanting to help people to change and to be better and to do better and to succeed and be happy because I think it's really important and we just don't really value that happiness anymore, I think.
Lisa Hoashi:
What advice would you give to others who are considering a similar leap?
Carolina Cobo:
So if you wake up every day being like, "I don't want to do this." If you are on Friday, just wishing not Monday to come, then start looking for something else. Worst case you can always go back. Maybe you realize you actually were super happy but you didn't have anything to compare. So just really... COVID made me sit and think. And I think we just get into this kind of lifestyle we have like we are going places, everything moving fast and we just need to be there and do this and do that, and we don't think.
Carolina Cobo:
But if you wake up in the morning and you're like, "I don't want to do this," then start thinking about it. And if not, as I said, worst case, you can always go back, you'll have that new experience under your belt and you probably would be more valued in what you were doing first. So really think about it, sit and think. It's so hard to think and discover you are not happy, but just give it a chance to see that. And then you realize maybe you were super happy, which is a great thing. Or maybe you'll go find something else and then you'll be happy, which will be even better.
Lisa Hoashi:
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Carolina. I really appreciate all your ideas and tips today, and just sharing your story with us. It has been really... I really get a sense of that desire to support and to encourage people. So if people want to connect with you or learn more about what you're up to, how can they do that?
Carolina Cobo:
So LinkedIn is probably the best place. So just my name, Carolina Cobo, and they'll find me. But I'm pretty much everywhere, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Twitter, Facebook. So whatever it might be, people would be comfortable, but I always get back to everyone on LinkedIn, so that's a good place to start, at least.
Lisa Hoashi:
Awesome. Well, thanks again for joining us. It's been a great conversation.
Lisa Hoashi:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Leap Like Me. So now is the time, if you're listening for the first time and you got some inspiration and ideas for your own life and work, to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss new episodes, and leave us a five star review. You can listen to Leap Like Me wherever you stream your podcast, and the video recordings are also on YouTube. Head on over to lisahoashi.com to get the show notes, which also includes transcriptions. If you are at your own crossroads moment in life and are ready to get clear on your next direction and want to work with me as a trusted outside perspective, who can guide the way, then head on over to lisahoashi.com/catalyst-coaching.
Lisa Hoashi:
That's a wrap for this episode. Thank you for listening and stay tuned for more.
