Have you ever had an idea that you just couldn’t get out of your head? A dream that, no matter how hard you tried to ignore it, just kept popping up. If so, honor that inclination. As today’s guest says, if you can’t stop thinking about it, you should probably go for it. 

In this episode, I’m chatting with Jack Mengel about his leap from project management to data science. Jack is sharing how we went from merely dreaming about a career in data science to being “all in” for his leap in just a matter of weeks. Plus, he’s shedding light on some of the limiting beliefs he encountered along the way and how he overcame them.

In this episode, you’ll learn...

• Where Jack started his career and where he is now [1:52]

• How Jack accidentally landed in a project management role [3:42]

• How turning 30 inspired Jack to make a change in his career [7:55]

• Why Jack was drawn to data science, and why he was initially hesitant to go for it [10:45]

• How Jack went from not knowing what he wanted to do to being all in for his new career in just a few weeks [18:06]

• Why Jack decided to work with a career coach before he took his leap [19:26]

• How Jack taught himself the skills he’d need for his new career [23:33]

• How your identify shifts and evolves during your career leap [28:03]

• How Jack landed a data science role at his original company [30:30]

• Using your passion to fuel your leap and make the hard work enjoyable [36:02]

• Putting yourself out there to make connections and land projects in your new field [37:20]

• How to overcome the limiting beliefs keeping you from taking your leap [44:30]

If you’re considering your own courageous career leap, be sure to tune into this episode.

About Jack Mengel

Jack Mengel is an experienced Program Manager and Data Science Engineer, based in Boston. He graduated from Boston University in May 2021 with a Masters in Computer Science (concentration Data Analytics).

In his current role, he is a full-time data scientist. He has performed projects predicting returns of stocks as well as trade costs, using both classifier and regression approaches. He has constructed a series of models using gradient boosting to predict trade costs for globally traded stocks that is now used in his prior company's trading process.

His data science work has also been heavily involved in "natural language processing" (aka NLP) meaning he derived statistical insights using text. His work in this space has been primarily looking for sentiment / investment signals on companies in earnings calls and company filings.

Jack has competed in several Kaggle competitions. Here is a link to his notebooks: https://www.kaggle.com/jacksmengel/notebooks

Connect with Jack

Jack’s Instagram

Resources Mentioned by Jack

Mindset by Carol Dweck

Kaggle.com

So Good They Can’t Ignore You by Cal Newport

Standing at your own crossroads and ready to get clear on your direction? Apply for my Catalyst Coaching Program today!

Transcript of Episode 25: Facing Your Fears & Going For Your Dream Job with Jack Mengel

[00:00:00] Jack Mengel I want to make be very clear like it went from I have no idea what I want to do to I know what I want to do, but I don't feel like I'm smart enough to do it to. Okay, fine. I'm smart enough to do it, too. Let's do this. I'm all in. And that happened very quickly. I mean, that happened over a few weeks. 

[00:00:24] Lisa Hoashi Welcome to Leap Like Me If you can't shake the feeling that you're not on the right path. If you feel called to change things up but don't know how to begin, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Lisa Hoashi, and my specialty is coaching people at those crossroads moments in life when you feel called to take a new direction. Sometimes that means taking a leap. I want to share practical advice and inspiration for your leaps and how to keep going after your dreams in a challenging world. This season, we're talking all about career leaps. Come along for the conversation.

[00:01:09] Lisa Hoashi Hello and welcome to Leap Like Me. Joining me today is Jack Mengel. He's a data science manager based outside of Boston. Prior to his career leap, he was a project manager for a financial company. At age 30, he realized something had to change. He spent the next four years pursuing his goal of becoming a data scientist. In our conversation, you'll hear about the obstacles he encountered during his career change and what he did to overcome them and get into a job he says he's excited to do every day. Hello, Jack, and welcome to leave me. 

[00:01:50] Jack Mengel Hi, Lisa. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:52] Lisa Hoashi So great to have you here. So you are on the podcast because you have done a career switch of some sort. And so we'll get into that in a moment. But first, I want to start with just getting a sense of you. Where are you and what are you doing for work now? 

[00:02:09] Jack Mengel Yeah, I live in Boston. I live in just a suburb outside of Boston. I work at a basically a data science consulting company. They are in Maryland, but I work remotely currently in my little office here, entirely remote. Basically, what that means is I do data science for corporate companies, corporations, and, you know, in a consulting kind of relationship. You know, they have a lot of different clients and people like me just kind of move from client to client over time, helping them with that kind of work. So, yeah, that's your question directly. 

[00:02:52] Lisa Hoashi So this is where you landed and what were you doing before? 

[00:02:57] Jack Mengel Well, so it's kind of a it's kind of a not a simple answer. Do you mean, like, career wise? You know, like. Yeah. So before I was a project manager, basically at a large financial company. And so I was doing that for several years. And I'm 33 now. So, you know, for the majority of my career, I was basically doing that kind of work, you know, in other things too, along the way. But in the most recent job, which was from 2015 to last year, I was doing mostly project management. So it was it was a giant shift over time. 

[00:03:42] Lisa Hoashi And what were you finding about that job or that type of work that was starting to get you to think, okay, I think there might be something else out there for me. Yeah. What kind of got you thinking in that direction? 

[00:03:58] Jack Mengel Yeah. So it's funny, like, I would say that I never aspired to be a project manager in any way. So in other words, I think I kind of fell into that role over time. You know, I was pretty good at it, I would say. So that helps. But then, I don't know, eventually. So, you know, in 2017 is when I would say things really change for me in a sense. You know, I think we've done all this. But, you know, I enrolled in graduate school. I got a career coach I really like, made a direct effort to make this shift. But many years before that, you know, many years I graduated from college. But, you know, the years preceding that, I knew that this was not the path for me. And I knew that what I wanted to do was something more creative and likely was having to do with data science. You know, we can get into all that and we will. But that was kind of like it was sort of a slow, you know, it wasn't like a aha moment. It was just sort of like when I was thinking about this interview, this podcast a little bit, I didn't I try not to do too much prep, but, you know, one thing that came up was that I kept telling other people that pre 2017, I kept telling other people, hey, I would I would love to be a data scientist. Wouldn't that be cool kind of thing? And I did that enough times where I was like, Well, why don't I just do it? Why? Why am I? I do that? You know, I do that a lot, like, oh, I'd love to go see this movie. And then I just don't do it, you know? But if I do enough times, I kind of pause. I'm like, All right, I brought this up enough time. What's the deal? 

[00:05:52] Lisa Hoashi It sounds like I want to go to the movie. 

[00:05:55] Jack Mengel Well, let's do it. You know, it was honestly sort of like that. And I mean, I don't know if I'm kind of this is a long winded answer to a simple question. So there's a lot here to unpack. I'll just stop there. 

[00:06:09] Lisa Hoashi Sure. Yeah. Okay. So what I'm hearing is, like a big sort of foundational thing was the fact that you felt like you had kind of landed in project management like you did. Yeah. You didn't necessarily choose or set out to do that. And it was something that you just kind of fell into this. And what were you finding about project management? How did it feel to be a project manager, you know, in those last few years? 

[00:06:35] Jack Mengel You know, like I said, it was I felt like I was pretty good at it. So, you know, my dad growing up was entrepreneur, so and he was kind of in construction, not construction, but like development of properties, sort of real estate development. And in a way, he was a project manager for many things. So I kind of had that language. I had the it was just kind of in me. And so I knew that I was good at it. I knew I was adding value. So that was that was rewarding and it did feel like I was kind of growing in my career that way. I felt like, you know, I was at my responsibilities were growing. I mean, I had great job security. There was endless work, but in no way was it fulfilling. And I think some people probably I'm not saying project management in any way, not an interesting work. I just for me, it wasn't like I woke up looking forward to it. And then the work that I do now I absolutely do. Mm. I, it does not feel like work, it feels like something that I legitimately enjoy and want to do and want to get better at. And I did not feel that way with project management. And again, there's probably people out there that feel that way and good for them. It just wasn't for me. 

[00:07:54] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. 

[00:07:55] Jack Mengel Yeah. So. And no, I guess the last couple of years, it was sort of like a big part to just go back to your question directly, like I think the number I turned 30 in 2018. And so in 2017, I think I felt that the gravity of the orbit of age 30 coming. And I, I think just naturally I just started getting serious about like, okay, what is it I want to do? I do not want to be 40 years old and like still doing something. I don't really care about that much. 

[00:08:28] Lisa Hoashi Yeah. I'm curious, what is 30 kind of represent to you? 

[00:08:32] Jack Mengel Yeah. So I would say it just meant that there's less. Well, you know, I have interest in having a family and I'm married now. I wasn't back then, but I am now. And, you know, I, I think that, like, time moves fast. So, you know, at age 30, it takes a long time to build a career. So the sooner you can make your decision and build, the better off you are. So I don't want to be shifting careers at age 38 or 45 unless it's like people change and all that that some of that's healthy. But I don't want it to be because I didn't I wasn't introspective. I didn't do the work because if you're starting over at 40, then, you know, that's that's a tough position. So I guess age 30 is like the beginning of adulthood. So when you're 20, kind of like you're figuring it out, which you are. I mean, yeah, in 2020 there are math at least that mine work. 

[00:09:33] Lisa Hoashi Yeah. So I can concur a lot of, you know, it's like I guess it kind of feels and felt this way for me and I think for a lot of people was like in 20, in your twenties, there's like some room for error, some room for experimentation, but like there there's some pressure then at 30 to have some things to figure it out, right? 

[00:09:54] Jack Mengel Yeah. Like, absolutely. I mean, that's when people start just culturally, people start having children and settling down, if you will. And that was happening around me, you know, with my friends. And I don't know, it wasn't like directly like, oh, I need to do it. There was no conscious thing. It was very just like, oh, I think 30. Oh, here we go. So I better, I'd better enjoy what I do. And my grandfather was my mother always plugged this into me all the time that, you know, to get the phrase wrong. But basically, if you if you don't enjoy your work, if you enjoy your work, it won't feel like a job. You'll never work a day in your life. You know that phrase? Yeah, I'm butchering it. But yeah. So I was that that was like a principle of mine at some point.

[00:10:45] Lisa Hoashi So if your at 30 kind of thinking about if I really want a job where I don't feel like I'm actually working, like I really enjoy it that extent that feels pleasurable and meaningful to me. How did you land on data science? 

[00:11:00] Jack Mengel I guess it's always been the data science is just like new term, but another word for it is just using statistics to. Come up with it, come up with insights or come up with observations. Generically speaking. And that's always been something I've been interested in. So, you know, when I was doing the prep, I wrote down a couple of things here. The one thing I mean, really, the book Moneyball, I want to I want to spotlight that here by Michael. By Michael Lewis. It's now a movie like with Brad Pitt. So everyone sort of this is basically a story about the Oakland A's. I've always been a baseball fan. In the early 2000, they had basically no money compared comparatively to other teams, but they were able to still compete. And the way they did that was they used statistics, you know, much more aggressively than the other teams who were sort of using their their vision, their eyes. And so and they went into detail about how they use statistics. And I swear that book like totally changed how I think about a lot of things. So that was always there. And then the company I was that was very sort of data science. They very much used numbers and data to make decisions. And I just wanted to be a part of that. But it really changed when I booked a career coach. So I sort of knew he was coming. You know, I knew that this wasn't going to work for me long term. I needed a way. I knew I was like an open mind. I said, I don't know what this is going to be, but I know that it's not this and I need to figure it out. And so I found Rebecca Fraser, Phil, who's a wonderful career coach, and she helped me to kind of get there to from I'm unhappy to like this is my, this is what I want to do, data science. And that was sort of like a long process that took a few sessions. So, I mean, I'm happy to go through that. Yeah. So basically what happened was she gave me this like you're the Mad Libs, do you know Mad Libs? Yeah. So we did that kind of exercise. But like for your ideal day or like your ideal career, your ideal job. And it's like I woke up and blank, you know, and I just put that out and that was a really helpful exercise. And what happened was the word creativity kept coming up. 

[00:13:35] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. 

[00:13:36] Jack Mengel Like in all these exercises, I just want to be creative. I just want to be creative. So we kind of paused and said, okay, what? What what does that really mean? What are some jobs? And there was like a section, like what are some jobs that would fill fill that in data science is like at the top. So sort of like, okay, we have something here. I know. I knew that if I worked in that, I would be happy to know that at that point. And she she said, Well, why don't you go for that? And the words that came out of my mouth were, I don't feel like I'm smart enough to do that kind of work. And that was sort of like, okay, now, now, now we know what we need to work on, okay? It's not whether you want to do it. It's not whether you would be happy. It's it's like you don't you yourself don't feel like you can do it. And she helped me through that big time, but she introduced me to this idea of the growth mindset. You know, I think it's like pretty catchy now, but basically converting your thoughts from I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough to let go, learn and get good at it. Don't worry about what's hot. Don't measure yourself. Just go do it. Go get better at it. Like the growth from the fixed mindset. And so that was like book mindset by Carol Dweck. She recommended I Buy. She kind of coined this, so she just helped me get over that fear. And that was a big, big, big fear. I mean, I'm not going to sugarcoat like that. Know, I think anyone who's listening to this who is kind of thinking about the same thing that I did probably relates to what I'm talking about. And, you know. 

[00:15:17] Lisa Hoashi Can we just unpack that? Yeah. What is kind of part of that? Is it because it's like it's a really complex thing that you're doing or is that what's kind of behind that like feeling of like, I'm not smart enough? 

[00:15:30] Jack Mengel Yeah, I think it was just like the field itself is sort of filled with very smart, it is filled with very smart people. And there's sort of this like very human fear of like, you know, that's not that's not I'm not going to make it in that situation. It's sort of like instinctual, you know, it's not so, you know, I think it's really just it was just a human thing. Like, I remember applying to colleges and feeling like, oh, I'm not going to get in here. There's no way. And then are seeing other people applying that were like smarter than me. So to speak, like had. They were like these really smart, valedictorian type people, and they were applying to the same college, like, oh, god, you know, that that that fear. I think just like at that time, data science. It is it is still now. Oh, absolutely. But at that time, too, it was like such a hot field that like really interesting things were coming out of and like was just full of really smart people. And so there was this like, oh, well, I'm not going to do that. You know, I'm not fit for that kind of thing. Is that a natural response? Yeah. And then I after I paused and just really evaluated the situation and kind of use like CBT, like is this actually true that I'm not smart enough? And if you actually look at the facts, like for me it absolutely was not true because, you know, I was ah, if you if you look at I was already kind of doing that in my job in several ways and in sort of certain ways. And I'd already gotten into grad school. You know, math was always something I was good at. So there's plenty of evidence there after getting through all that fear that I could do it and also just in some way trusting Rebecca that like, you know, this is it's such a scary thing, though, really, is that to like go against that fear? 

[00:17:28] Lisa Hoashi So I felt really scared to go against that, that particular, like, thought and belief that you had at that moment. 

[00:17:35] Jack Mengel Oh, yeah. I did not tell anybody about my ambition until I knew that my skills were pretty solid, that, you know, any negative criticism was going to like any negative feedback, you know, like that would sort of hint, even a little hint that it would bring me back to that feeling of I'm not good enough or not smart enough, rather. 

[00:17:58] Lisa Hoashi You know, you did some things to kind of protect it for a little bit, protect you and protect like this, this ambition that you had. 

[00:18:06] Jack Mengel Oh, God, yes. Yes. I mean, that was the only way it could survive. So I guess transitioning once I made that so that I want to make very clear, like it went from I have no idea what I want to do to I know what I want to do, but I don't feel like I'm smart enough to do it to okay, fine. I'm smart enough to do it too. Let's do this. I'm all in. And that happened very quickly. I mean, that happened over a few weeks. Very intense.

[00:18:39] Lisa Hoashi What part happened? You mean all of that happened over a couple of weeks? 

[00:18:42] Jack Mengel Yeah, because - 

[00:18:44] Lisa Hoashi Wow, that is very intense to go through in a couple of weeks. 

[00:18:47] Jack Mengel Yeah. Yeah. Because Rebecca and I were meeting maybe twice a month or something. Uh huh. And every session was like very driving towards that. So maybe not a few weeks, maybe a couple of months. I don't know. This was five years ago. 

[00:19:01] Lisa Hoashi Seemed like a short amount of time, I guess we could say. Oh, it seemed like you were you're are quickly passing through those stages. 

[00:19:09] Jack Mengel Yeah, I was totally ready to like do this like whatever it was, if it came out, I wanted to be like an ice cream maker or something. I don't know. I was ready to accept that, you know, so I was just ready to do whatever it took. Yeah. So it had been pretty quickly. 

[00:19:26] Lisa Hoashi Yeah. I'm curious. I mean, it sounds like by the time you found Rebecca, you were and what you just said, you were in a place of a lot of openness about like, okay, I know it's got to be somethin. It's time to move into it. But to get to the point where you hired a coach, what kind of brought you there or had you worked with a coach before? 

[00:19:47] Jack Mengel No, I had never worked with I mean, I have a therapist, but similar, I guess. But I do think actually that that would help. Like I think people if you're in therapy, you're kind of more open to, at least in my situation, like you're more useful over time. You're more open to that kind of dialog of, you know, I'm open to working on this and accepting any outcome that happens. But it really built up slowly, like there was a period where I knew for a while that I did not like I said, I did not want to do what I was doing. And maybe the last year before I finally met Rebecca, there was little subtle changes, like the way I talked about it, the way I, you know, I would like research it on my own time. I do a little like online courses to learn about Python, which is a skill you need to learn in that field, in our field. And then it was like just like little baby steps for that for a year. Mm hmm. And then I read a Business Insider article about career coaching, and she was in there like she was reference or she was. They were, like, experimenting, like, oh, what's it like to have a career coach? And they did the career coach and they. Wrote down the experience and I immediately contacted her when I saw that. So it was kind of like I was committed. So I needed I knew I needed help. I didn't. She's excellent at helping you to get over fears, to encourage networking. She's very, very pro that it's not a simple answer. It's sort of like I knew what I wanted, and it took years to build up the courage to go do it. 

[00:21:33] Lisa Hoashi Yeah, I hear you. I've had experiences like that in my own life where I took over time doing that work. And it's interesting that you bring up like therapy and coaching. I mean, I've had both and I often have clients who are doing both and they they can have they can really work well together sometimes. I'm curious just in hearing your own point of view of like, say someone's in therapy and doing that work on themselves or working through, you know, the things that you work on in therapy. How would you make the distinction for someone of like the point when they need to call a coach? 

[00:22:08] Jack Mengel Like there's a point in your life where you say, Oh, I need a therapist. 

[00:22:12] Lisa Hoashi Yeah, they're making a point in your life where you might need a coach. Yeah. 

[00:22:17] Jack Mengel Yeah. 

[00:22:17] Lisa Hoashi I mean, maybe I don't see it that way. I'm. Yeah, I'm just curious. It's hard. 

[00:22:21] Jack Mengel To say. Like, it's so personal. I, I mean, I was it just made sense to me at that moment in my life. So I will say this like it's very important that it's sort of like buying a gym membership, a coach or education or anything really. But just to stick with coach for now, right? If you can buy a gym membership and it's all there for you but you don't like go and use it every day, nothing's going to happen. So you have to be at this point where you sort of let go of thinking you know all the answers and allow someone else to enter that space. So if you kind of feel like this combination of wanting to do something but not and knowing you can do it, I think there was a part of me that knew I could do it. That's why this all happened is a little voice me is like, come on, you can do this if you have that, but you just can't get there and you're willing. And I think based on that, you're willing to do the work. Then I think of coaches so valuable, so valuable. Yeah. 

[00:23:33] Lisa Hoashi All right. So, Rebecca helped you get through like these places to get to the point that we're ready to, you're like, know what you want to do and you're ready to take some action. So can you tell us the story of kind of what happened from that point? 

[00:23:47] Jack Mengel Yeah, that was crazy. So that was 2018 start of 2018. So at that point, so in my fields, Python is like central to that programing language and I knew very little about it. So I just started using online resources to teach myself Python. I mean, I knew enough to know that that was very important. And so I kind of just really threw myself into that pursuit of learning Python and particular skills within Python, particular to data science. There was a big moment where I did a like an informational interview with someone and it was like a fellow alumni from my college. They said, Oh, you need to use this site casual dot com. And I had heard about that from someone else too that was also in the field. And so I said, aha, like I have some, you know, there's two people telling me this. So I just really if you go on that site, it's an amazing site for what I was trying to do because it's a competition site. So there's companies like Airbnb. We'll post a bunch of data and they'll say, you know, come up with a model to the whole world. Here's our data. Come up with a model to predict, you know, whether this guy is a good host or I'm making it up, come up with a model and then whoever has the best model will pay you. And they pay a lot of money. So there's a lot of really talented people are on there doing work and a lot of them share what they do. Like you can just go in and see their work. And so there was this endless well of tutorials and sort of best practice. And so I really nights and weekends threw myself into that. It sounds like a lot of work. It really it, it wasn't I really enjoyed it because I knew I was I loved doing it. And even if it didn't go anywhere, I was enjoying it, you know. 

[00:25:47] Lisa Hoashi So through your you're starting to teach yourself Python. You were doing some, you know, having some conversations, doing some research. You come across this website that just kind of like opens up this whole new world to you where you can really, it sounds like accelerate. You're learning about this. All right. So what else was becoming clear to you at that time? 

[00:26:11] Jack Mengel Well, I enrolled in graduate school at that time, so I got into Boston University's computer science master's degree. And that was to do this work, too. And more academic, though, like it wasn't always immediately applicable, but all very important information. So I was doing both at the same time. So my ability to do the work was like exponentially growing. And what happened was it went from like, Oh no, I'm going to be stuck in this job forever. Or I just, I can't do this job. I don't know what I'm going to do this job, too. I'm committed to this. And once I committed to it, like really committed, it was like easy. I mean, it was such a relief because there was no there was no, you know, floating around. It was just like, this is what I'm doing. And I enjoyed it. So I can't stress enough the slow coming to the place where you know what you want to do. That took a long time. I don't think if you rush that at all, it would have worked. 

[00:27:23] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. But then you found a accelerate. And after that? 

[00:27:27] Jack Mengel Yeah. Then I was, like, committed, and I was like, I'm all in on this. 

[00:27:30] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. Yeah. And so you are working on this nights and weekends. You're doing a master's program. Is that also on the side while you still have your full time job? 

[00:27:41] Jack Mengel Yes. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I was only doing one class at a time. So it sounds it sounds harder than it is. But it was I mean, it was still a work, but I love that, too. I mean, this is clearly something I wanted to do. Mm hmm. Yeah. I love the classes. I love all the material. 

[00:28:03] Lisa Hoashi I mean, just if we could, like, cause there in reference back to that fear that you had of, like, I'm not smart enough. I think you mention the word identity, but and so I imagine, like, your identity was kind of changing, like as you went further down this path for yourself. 

[00:28:19] Jack Mengel Yeah, I mean, I think so. 2018 was when I was I probably spent that year almost every weekend. And my wife, we had just started dating and on weekends I would just be like working on this stuff and she's like, Wow, I can't believe that. It was just like she was just. I'm sure she was surprised if we were constantly negotiating time on weekends. 

[00:28:45] Lisa Hoashi To hang out?

[00:28:46] Jack Mengel Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But luckily, she. She understood that pursuit I was on, you know, like, bring my laptop over to her apartment and just, like, she would, like, go to the beach. I hit the beach, and she since convinced me that I like the beach, but I hate the beach. And she would come back from the beach. I'm still working. And then we, like, have dinner. It was like kind of that for a year. And then in 2019, I really started to throw myself into the work in a professional setting. So I went up to a colleague of mine. At this point, I felt very solid about my skills and a colleague of mine who does this work for a living and said, Hey, I've gotten a lot better at Python, but our skill, I'm more than willing to help you in on any of your work. You know, I'm not asking for any raise and not asking for anything. Just would love to help you and he and that formed a relationship very quickly where we were working on interesting work until I left the company and that was a huge thing for me to build confidence and just experience. So I was like, it's like one year of commitment. Got me to feeling like, okay, I can, you know, I can do this. 

[00:30:03] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. So that was a real that was like a moment where you're like, okay, things have changed that you had the confidence to walk up to this college. 

[00:30:12] Jack Mengel Yeah, that was big. It wasn't a moment earlier that I could have done that. It was it was like it took every day of that year to get to that point. But then once once I had that conversation, I was really integrated into the process of data science at my company, which was cool. 

[00:30:30] Lisa Hoashi So you actually started getting more integrated into data science at the company where you're doing project management, is that right or did you...?

[00:30:38] Jack Mengel Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:39] Lisa Hoashi Before you switched to a totally different job? 

[00:30:42] Jack Mengel Yeah. So I was a project manager and then I was just kind of doing this work, sort of under the table. And so that was 2019. And then for probably a year and a half, I was just doing stuff under the table and it really sort of grew over time to a point where I was doing it most of my time and, but still doing my project management work and. Eventually I got a title change within my company to be data science engineer and project manager. It's a great title too. 

[00:31:15] Lisa Hoashi Added on. 

[00:31:19] Jack Mengel And yeah, really rolled off the tongue. 

[00:31:24] Lisa Hoashi In some acknowledgment of all that work that you're doing that wasn't necessarily part of your role, right? 

[00:31:30] Jack Mengel And that was key. Key. I mean, this journey wasn't over yet because getting that title change means you have to convince all these other people within my company that I'm now this role. And I had been doing a different role for years. And now that, you know, they need to acknowledge that I'm now this role as well. And, you know, they didn't they didn't want to do that. And I understand. So I had to really be very convincing. I had my work had to be very convincing that, you know, this this was a good thing. So once I had that title, I could then move on basically because I knew my company was not going to be a long term fit for me, but I knew I couldn't get to the place I wanted to go without that title change. Because when I go to interview and I'm like a project manager, it's just it doesn't carry the way. 

[00:32:23] Lisa Hoashi Felt the best strategy was to like get the answer, make the transition into this new role within the same company. 

[00:32:32] Jack Mengel Yeah, exactly. I didn't think that there was any. 

[00:32:35] Lisa Hoashi Rather than just kind of going called out onto the market saying, I am a data scientist. 

[00:32:41] Jack Mengel Yeah. Because on my resume it won't say data scientist, it'll say project manager. And that's just like you have to argue around that. You have to pitch yourself around that. So if it just if I could just get that title, it would really help. And it did. Once I got it, it was just a lot easier. 

[00:33:00] Lisa Hoashi Mm hmm. 

[00:33:01] Jack Mengel Yeah. 

[00:33:01] Lisa Hoashi And will you tell us about that? Like, how did how did you go to the next step then? 

[00:33:07] Jack Mengel So I got the title, which was amazing. And that was a big day, by the way. Absolutely no pay raise. Yeah. I just want to stress like this. Like, I mean, I really don't. I mean, of course, money is very important, and I'm not a socialist or anything. I just this is this has all been about doing the work that I want to do. If they wanted to pay me, whatever, you know, I don't know. I don't want to say they can pay me whatever they want, but I love doing the work. So it's not like this pursuit of this imaginary number of money. So I got the I got the raise, I didn't get. I think I did get a raise, but I got a title change that was huge. And then I was on the market and I was getting all kinds of interviews at some really like awesome firms. And not getting them because I had never interviewed for this position is a completely different position than, you know, they ask you very technical questions. You have to be ready for that. Another is another link, another chapter in this. Like I had never the journey wasn't complete because I had never like I got to land this job like I knew eventually I would. But I was I was. 

[00:34:20] Lisa Hoashi Like a new learning curve for how to actually get a job. And that right. 

[00:34:27] Jack Mengel I got into this interview and they asked me these questions that I knew and it was this awesome firm and I was really nervous. And they asked me all these questions that I know the answer, but I didn't. If I had known that this was kind of going to be the format of the interview, I would have been more prepared. But because it was, I had never really done these kinds of interviews before, it did not go over very well. So, you know, after my fifth interview, I got better and better. And then eventually through a friend without an interview at my current company. And it's worked out. Luckily, I had all the experience that I had if I did not have all that experience from 2018 to now. So I got hired in October. So three years of work experience and like real projects at work that I built over time that was integral to my application. So in a way, it couldn't have gone any faster. There wasn't like a different path. It's really all about just like doing the work consistently so that and just forget when, forget about that, just do it. There's this book that Rebecca gave me called and the title says it all, Be So Good That They Can't Ignore You. Mhm. So just forget everything just gets so damn good that literally anyone would hire you and they'd be foolish if they didn't. That was kind of my mentality. Mm. Yeah. 

[00:36:02] Lisa Hoashi Well, you were driven. I mean, that really stands out to me. Jack about your story, just like how driven you started getting. And, and yeah, I mean, really hearing the passion for the work that, you know, it's I've heard you say a couple of times like it didn't you were putting a lot of hours into this and a lot of focus into it. But it sounds like it wasn't really feeling like a drain on your energy that it was actually it was like it just the momentum kept building for you, it sounds like. 

[00:36:30] Jack Mengel Yeah, it was a lot. I mean, frankly, it was a lot of work. Like a lot of work. Maybe not, I don't know. But it did not feel like work. So, you know, for anyone that's listening to this, like that's so important to find something that you actually want to do. Like, you know, you're laying in bed and you're thinking about what you could do tomorrow to improve what you were doing today. Because it's fun then because there is so much work that there's there's no way this is going to go well unless you actually like it. 

[00:37:04] Lisa Hoashi Yeah, yeah. 

[00:37:06] Jack Mengel There's no way. 

[00:37:07] Lisa Hoashi Yeah, I feel this about my own business. I mean, I really love what I do, and I also get, like, super excited about it, but and it's a lot of work as well, so. Yeah, I hear you on that. Well, Jack, is there any other parts of your story that maybe we haven't like touched on that you do feel like is important that other people hear? 

[00:37:29] Jack Mengel I mean, not really. I've kind of hit everything. But the other thing is there was a there was a project that kind of put me over the top. So I got in 2020. Yeah, the pandemic had just hit and my colleague and I worked on this project together and because I had really built up my skills at that point, I was ready for this project and we built this like awesome set of tools in Python for my organization that really turned into like a legitimate project that we kind of created it ourselves and it blossomed into this real project at the company. And that really helped me in the interview process too, because it was sort of like it was mine. I could really use the story in sort of finding my next role. So I guess, you know, one thing is like building that bench of like examples on your resume so that you can make that switch is really important. And the more you do it, the more the more you do it. That's the best way to get better. And then getting that one kind of project that's like on it depends on your industry, right? Whoever's listening to this. But generally speaking, you know that project that's on your resumé that says, I did this, here's the value I created, blah, blah, blah. Then it's like, okay, this guy's legit. So I think before that I was sort of a flimsy resume and then it's really solidified that. So really throwing yourself out there for me was a big deal like it within my organization to just say, okay, I'm good enough to do this guy's like, what if like, let's do this? And then it just kind of took itself from there. And I'm trying to I'm bringing this up because you need that solid project on your resume, in my opinion. Yeah. To make the switch. 

[00:39:24] Lisa Hoashi And I think that's a great point. You know, the other way that people kind of describe that is like their portfolio, it's kind of yeah, like your what portfolio of projects can you show people where you like really had a role in it and you really can show them the impact of what that project did. So and it sounds like you, you know, really you found a way to do that at your current company where you already had the relationships, the standing, and you kind of like, you know, maximize that opportunity that you're already had so many years of credibility like at that company. So you could kind of use it to continue growing and to to create that portfolio that you needed for yourself. 

[00:40:08] Jack Mengel Yeah, those relationships are huge. That's a great segue. I was just thinking of this. Informational interviews are really useful like and what that means is I didn't know what this meant, but before I did it and Rebecca recommended that going and having coffee with someone that and you're not, you're not trying to like get them to get you a job at all. You're just asking them questions about an industry or something and that's it. You're just gaining information from them. I had a number of those early on when I didn't know anything like I knew I want to do. Data science is a big blob of a black box of an industry that I wanted to work in. Like, what does it really mean? And don't do YouTube videos, go talk to people and like real people. And I got so much good information and validation through that process of Here are the certain skills you need here, the one you. Think you're overrated and you might get someone say, hey, when you get to a certain point, give me a call. You know, that kind of thing is so valuable and then stay in touch with those people every couple of months on. Got an email? Hey, how are you? Blah, blah, blah. Yeah. So the relationships is so important. 

[00:41:23] Lisa Hoashi How did you go about finding your informational interviews? 

[00:41:26] Jack Mengel I just contacted anyone that I knew that was in the industry. And there a woman that went to my college that is in the industry, and I reached out to her. I barely knew her in college, you know, but I used that very small relationship to just get a conversation and then I try to stay in touch with her. Now, there's no I mean, they can say, no, you don't have to, like, have an awesome relationship with someone just said people love people want to tell you what they think about the industry, so don't be afraid to ask. So a lot of it was like LinkedIn too. I think I went a couple on to, you know, my, my college and people in the end like data science search within their and then try to get their emails. I don't think anything ever actually came from that. But that was one avenue. Yes, I'm just remembering something. So what also helped me to get over the hump was I use this, what is it called, a mentorship program. So when I was like at the point where this is 20, 20, 2021 that I knew I had the skills, I knew I was ready, okay? I knew I was ready to do this job. I just needed to get the job. There's a company called Sharpest Minds that I heard about on a podcast, and they were like, Hey, we'll mentor you and it'll be free. But the only catch is that when you get the job you want, we get like 5% of your wage for the first year. And I said, that's fine because then, you know, then I have the job I want. So whatever. And I met through some my mentor VIB Bois, who works at Amazon, which is like a huge, awesome thing to talk to someone who is in that big, big tech space. Kind of help me guide through that. And there's just so many little industry things to know that you just need to talk to people to figure out. 

[00:43:31] Lisa Hoashi So you wouldn't have well, you heard about that on a podcast, but you're feeling like your take away was that if you were out there having conversations, you wouldn't have found these things otherwise. 

[00:43:42] Jack Mengel No, no way, no way, no way. Yeah. Like Kaggle was one. That's like one of the earliest ones that multiple people said, Oh yeah, you should definitely use Kaggle. Definitely check that out. Anyone who's in our industry uses that. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Maybe I would have figured that out somehow, you know, I mean, now that I'm in this job, I definitely would have eventually found it. But the fact that I found it that soon and like with that conviction, I'm like, yeah, this is it, you know, work, go spend time in there. Would have been lost without that conversation. 

[00:44:15] Lisa Hoashi Yeah. Well, Jack, thank you so much. It's been amazing to hear your story. And thank you for all of the ideas and advice that you've offered to people who are listening or watching. I want to just wrap up with the three questions I ask every guest, which is the first of which is, what do you wish you had known before you leave? 

[00:44:39] Jack Mengel I wish I had known that that I could totally do it and it's all in my head. The journey was what I had, but I wish that, you know, just pause and be like, Is that really true, Jack? Are you really is that really true? But you know. 

[00:44:57] Lisa Hoashi Yeah. And so the second question for you is, what is maybe one of the most unexpected things that's come from really? 

[00:45:04] Jack Mengel Yeah. So like what I found is that traditional education is very important. I loved it. It definitely helped me to get my job. But there's a lot online that I think probably helped me more than my master's degree because I learned all the really hard skills that you need in my job, my current job online. I did not learn many of those skills through school. School is more like theoretical or just, you know, academic, useful understanding the big picture type of stuff, which is very important. But as far as like doing my job every day and doing it well, I learned online, which is interesting. 

[00:45:49] Lisa Hoashi Cool. Thanks for that. And so all right. Here's the last one. What would be your advice to someone who's thinking about taking a similar leap? 

[00:45:57] Jack Mengel My advice is if you're thinking about it, probably know the answer and try to do what you can in the way you do it, in the way you do these kinds of things, to slow down and think about why. What's holding me back from what I want and know what what it is you want? Because I knew vaguely what I wanted, but I didn't know what it was exactly. And until you exactly know it, you can't do it. You can't pursue it. And that's okay. You kind of that's part of the process and refining it to like, what is it? But the big one is if you're thinking about it, I'm pretty sure you should be doing it. 

[00:46:39] Lisa Hoashi Yeah, this is a maxim that I've discovered, too. It's like the little voice inside. Like, usually there's something behind that, right? 

[00:46:49] Jack Mengel Oh, yeah. Like there's something in you that's saying, No, no, I know what the answer is. You're just not listening, you know? And once I it's been so fun, this whole process, even though it's been terrifying at times to do this, because once I was like, okay, you know, let's do this. It's like, so I felt a sigh of relief. Like, that's our analysis. Go do it. You know, I don't know. I don't think I don't need any more opinions, you know, I know what it is. I think such a relief. Yeah, I think it's fun. 

[00:47:24] Lisa Hoashi Awesome. Well, thank you, Jack, so much. It's been great to have you on the show. Appreciate it. 

[00:47:30] Jack Mengel Yeah, thanks, Lisa. It was fun. I hope people get something out of it. 

[00:47:34] Lisa Hoashi I think they will. Lots of care. Thank you. 

[00:47:37] Jack Mengel All right. Thank you. All right. 

[00:47:41] Lisa Hoashi Thank you for listening to this episode of Leap Like Me. If you're enjoying the show and getting lots of value from it, be sure to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss any new episodes and leave us a five star review. Also, do you know anyone who's considering a career change who might appreciate the ideas and inspiration from this show? Please let them know about it. We want as many people as possible to benefit from these shows and know that if you do share it, you can always tag me at Lisa Hoashi on Instagram or LinkedIn. By the way, if you haven't already connected with me in those two places, I'm also sharing tons of good stuff there. Speaking of sharing, I want you to know about my new free change planner. This planner is for you if you'd like to make a significant change in life or work, but you're feeling kind of stuck. My change planner will help you get the clarity you need to take your next steps inside a show. You have to understand what you really want and why it's important, how to face your fears constructively so they don't hold you back. And this planner also has a scenario cruncher. I help you get all possible scenarios out of your head so you can find the right one for you. It's my favorite part, and having used it with many clients, I've seen how powerful it is. I know you're going to get many great insights out of this free planner, so head on over to LeapLikeMe.com to get your copy. That's a wrap for this episode. Thanks for listening, for sharing the show and being part of this journey with me. Take good care. 

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